Russian parliament asks to prohibit Windows 10 use in state organizations | Hacker News Reader

Russian parliament asks to prohibit Windows 10 use in state organizations

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91 pointsommunist46 comments

Probably a smart thing to do.

For security reasons, it seems like country's using secure open source software that they can audit makes a lot of sense.

I like Microsoft and Apple but who knows what pressure might be applied to them to back doors computers shipped to specific countries.

Bet you wouldn't be downvoted if it was any other country :-).

I don't like the Russian government, but they have a point - Windows 10 borders on 'insane' when it comes to the user data it shares "anonymously". Plus it helps the open source communities...

Then again, I don't trust Android and Google Docs apps that want access to my files, information, contacts, microphone, and more...

We install a keylogger and store your passwords... anonymously! To help you.

1Password? LastPass? Nah we don't know anything about the state of the art.

I use an Android Note 4, but I don't install many apps. I use a web browser instead for Facebook, Twitter, and many other sites instead of installing apps. I do this because of the permissions many apps require, even though they don't need some permissions to support their functionality.

I'm also surprised at how many apps need to run in the background. Notepads, music players, file explorers, an expense manager - why would they need to run all the time if I don't even use them and haven't set up any syncing.

Not to mention that Google Play Services is draining my battery like crazy by using GPS and keeping the CPU awake for way too long...

See "Microsoft Government Security Program".

Presumably the point being that the Russian government (like many others) has access to Windows source code.

Well, we know they have XP and Windows 7. I don't know about Windows 10, but that seems less likely at this stage.

Don't overestimate them. I don't believe MS or US government would give access to source code to anybody with "alternative" world insight. It's like to give access to source code to N. Korea.

Well, for Win 7 MS had a "special co-operation agreement" with the modern Russian analog of the KGB agency, and disclosed Win 7 OS source code in full. There also was co-operation around Win 8 http://www.gazeta.ru/business/2011/12/01/3854510.shtml, but not around Skype sources.

Not sure what your point is. Also, not sure why my factual comment has been downvoted. (Is this reddit?) However, there is no shortage of info for anyone who knows how to use Google. To quote Computer Weekly:

An agreement signed in 2002 gave Russia access to the source code for Windows XP, 2000 and Server 2000. Under the latest agreement, Russia will gain access to the source code for Windows 7, Server 2008 R2, SQL Server and Office 2010.

http://www.computerweekly.com/news/1280093257/Microsoft-shar...

It's part of Microsoft's Shared Source Initiative

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/default.aspx

All governmental requests (whether from local, state, provincial, or national governments or agencies) for access to Microsoft product source code must be directed to the Government Security Program Team. They can be contacted at gspteam@microsoft.com

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/government-secur...

Getting access to Microsoft source code isn't that hard. As an MS MVP, I had access to it. (Rather useful for debugging stuff.) Smart card and remote viewer is how they did it for me.

Russia certainly has access. Plus it simply cannot be hard for Russia to get it via extralegal means. Field some great programmers, have them get hired. If intelligence agencies aren't doing this to most companies then they're just incompetent.

Thanks for the confirmation: MVPs can gert source under the same Shared Source Initiative (Part 3).

I thought reasonably informed people already knew this. I'm a bit surprised to find this level of ignorance on HN....

Technically, it is not that the parliament as an organisation asks to prohibit Windows 10.

It is only coming from a representative of one minority fraction «Just Russia» (generally considered fully and completely loyal to government (as opposed to mostly loyal Liberal-Democrats, who are not liberal democrats in any Western meaning, and Communists), but even more populist than the government pseudo-party United Russia). He is a deputy speaker (deputy chairman) for parliament; each minority fraction has got a deputy speaker position. So this plea may be ignored. Or it could be used as a trigger to issue arbitrary regulations on arbitrary possibly unrelated topic.

If there is a political decision to move to open-source tools (this is a big if), it will be actually not that hard to implement (if we are speaking about office use). Sensible options for use in government organisations include ALT Linux (an RPM-based independent distribution developed mostly in Russia which managed to obtain a few Russia-specific certifications) and MSVS (Mobile System Of Armed Forces; think CentOS with some special access control tools).

Threats of forbidding Microsoft Windows use in some settings (previous attempts, for example, promoted allowing training and support expenses but forbidding licensing expenses in school budgets) apparently were previously used as bargaining tools in Russia.

(Russian is my native language and I live in Russia)

I wonder if they'll continue supporting ReactOS. Would be good to see increased resources to support its growth.

https://www.reactos.org/node/946

Looks like jobs are available, so if any C/C++ coders wanted to be paid to work on an open-source Windows-compatible OS, the opportunities exist...

https://www.reactos.org/node/785

I don't have the C skills necessary but I would love to see ReactOS reach mature (-enough) state for work use soon: the new, privacy invading, direction that MS are taking their OS in with Win10 is unacceptable to me and yet my productivity on Windows in general is so much higher than Linux/OSX (probably just habit to be honest, I'll soon enough find out unless MS comes out with different approach to privacy defaults)

I'm in the same boat as you. I definitely won't be switching to Windows 10 with the privacy settings as they are, but I prefer working on Windows over Linux, mainly because I'm more confident that it won't break in some way (I've not had the best of luck with Linux, though I've seen it get progressively better, and I'm glad about the emerging work on Wayland/Mir, I just wish the audio stack had an overhaul too). Fingers crossed ReactOS will be stable by the time Windows 7 is no longer supported, either that and bite the bullet and switch to Linux/BSD.

I've been using both Unix and NT since about 1996. I agree with you entirely.

The killer for me is a weird combination of Stockholm syndrome and a seemingly drug-like addiction to Windows that I just can't shift. One minute I'll be swearing at the 15th problem of the day that occured on Windows and then spend all Saturday installing a Linux distribution and killing off my Windows Phone and Live accounts.

By Sunday it's got Windows back on it and I'm at it like a raving crack addict again. But I know it's hurting me. I know Linux well and am responsible for a fair chunk of Linux kit but I always end up with it on Windows again.

Last time: unity won't show file copy dialogs suddenly, duplicity backup won't work due to a bug in Ubuntu that has been open for over a year, my FortiClient VPN drops every 5 minutes, I can't find a RDP client (so I can still connect to my day job) that works properly.

Argh just kills me this. I want to do something else for a living now.

> "I want to do something else for a living now."

I know what you mean, I feel like that sometimes. I'm tired of the compromises on both sides, and it feels like we're building complex software on systems that can barely get the basics right.

Ultimately I'd like us to get rid of some of the cruft and start again. I'd like to see device drivers being hosted in a bare metal hypervisor like Xen, then just allow all OSes to use this common base. I suspect we could see renewed activity in the OS space if the hardware side was taken care of.

In the meantime, have you considered using a Mac? I personally try to avoid giving Apple money, but perhaps they'll be a decent halfway house for you?

That's exactly it. Too many compromises on each side.

I've had a couple of Macs. Plagued with hardware and software problems and are very inflexible IMHO. Last was a 2011 MBP and Mavericks which was WiFi hell.

A lot of friends have these problems at University. Turns out the common factor is Ubuntu. After I tell them to install Debian and enable non-free sources, they never have weird bugs again.

Worth a try. Will spend an evening on this. Thanks for the heads up.

I sometimes get this feeling that Ubuntu is giving Linux a bad name, with all the weird stuff that happens (or unexpectedly fails to happen) when running it. Of course, I only have anecdotal evidence here...

I've switched to Arch about a year ago and sure, the installation was a bit painful, but after that, I don't know... it just works (including the switch to the new 4.x kernel, but I'm given to understand that the jump was fairly minor). Oh, and Plasma 5 is pretty :)

I had Debian for a while, but the outdated packages were killing me (and I was on testing). Other than that, I couldn't really complain.

Agreed. I've run the last two LTS releases on our ops servers and it has been a pain in the arse to be honest.

I would like to have a bash at Arch but I can't be bothered to install it and it doesn't have a great security reputation.

I'm not too fussed about up to date packages but a recent Python 3 would be nice.

Have you considered trying out CentOS on those ops servers? There's plenty of support and documentation online. Package versions do tend to lag a bit, but I believe Python 3 is available (EDIT: It is... http://sopel.chat/python3-centos7.html ).

Yeah we've got a number of CentOS 5 boxes and a CentOS 6 proxy. They are rock solid but terribly out of date.

Python 3 is a compile it yourself on centos I understand.

Interesting, I'm also servicing an ailing CentOS 5 server; un-upgradeable and a pain: currently having to migrate the core application onto a new server, haven't had issues with Ubuntu LTS for server usage in the past so that's what I'm going for but the discussion here makes me want to go with Debian instead next time!

Python 3 is available through a Red Hat supported repo for CentOS 6 and CentOS 7.

https://access.redhat.com/products/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/...

Thanks for the advice on Debian, I figured Ubuntu would be similar in stability to Debian Testing, as Ubuntu uses the same code base for its main repos AFAIR, perhaps I was wrong. Which release branch do you recommend to your friends? Debian Stable?

To be fair to Ubuntu, I've had issues with distros other than Ubuntu, though admittedly I've not used Debian much.

Why ANY government would use closed-source US software has always been beyond me. The only explanation I can think of is utter ignorance. Not even bribery explains it (which I know is a BIG part of it, but still makes zero sense from national security perspective).

I commend Russians for being pretty savvy about operating systems these days. Building their own, sponsoring Linux variants, and now this. I can see how Microsoft's OS can be seen as a USA trojan horse for other countries, and I won't be surprised if others (China) follow suit. Even as other US companies tout increased security practices (Apple Apple)

This is not new, whether it is RedFlag Linux in China and Munich bending over backwards trying to accommodate Linux etc. There is a dose of envy about US corporations around the world. Remember China did some kind of quasi ban on Windows 8 ? Time to time, there is a bureaucratic circle jerk, which becomes headline news but just the reality of the world hits.. every one forgets and moves on.

Windows 10 is much more egregious that Windows 8

Doesn't surprise me, honestly. The USA has gotten a fairly bad reputation the past two years after Snowden revealed all that. Didn't they start using Russian made microprocessors? Makes sense that they start banning Windows 10. Companies like Microsoft are at the mercy of the American government, at least up to a certain extent. It's sad, but that's how it works.

Perhaps it's sad, but maybe it's the catalyst for change we need. Microsoft can lose a few individuals as customers and not blink an eye. Losing significant quantities of foreign governments as customers due to US government policies and actions may not go over so well with their bottom line.

The silver lining in all this is that there would be increased demand for programmers of all sorts !

Paradoxically mistrust between government helps money to flow in science.

Totally agree.

I'd even move to allow importing software and hardware (firmware) only under the condition that the sources be released, audited by the importing country, validated and recompiled (with validated compilers) by the importing country.

I can see only advantages to such a scheme:

1- promotes free(dom) software / open source,

2- improves security by forced auditing,

3- by increasing the cost of importing software, promote local production of software, therefore

4- reduce unemployment,

5- this would detect bad firmware (toyota, jeep), before it can be used in deadly applications.

etc.

Maybe this will be the year of Linux on the desktop.

Hopefully.

But it seems they'd rather push ReactOS.

Linux user here, but I'm still pretty glad to see an open source version of windows being supported, even if it the russian government.

Yes.

AFAIK ReactOS works together with Wine, so it could probably improve the integration of Windows apps in Linux.

Isn't the enterprise/managed version of Windows 10 different? I thought that the larger organisations to manage their own updates (WUSUS?) and that there would not be the need to process information on Microsoft's servers?

Well, they're not wrong to do that.

Note that Medvedev is behind this. He's Putin's alternate; when Putin hit his term limit, Medvedev ran for Premier and won, then deferred all decisions to Putin. So this is official policy, not some minor Duma member.

Windows 10 may be the worst product change since New Coke.

You are exaggerating, I understand there are concerns about the "privacy" part but I would not call Windows 10 worst of anything.

Medvedev has not yet said anything on this topic.

He is the receiver of the plea by deputy speaker (deputy chairman) of parliament representing «Just Russia» (a minority ultra-loyal fraction in parliament).

By now the voices for banning or restricting Windows 10 are from Levichev («Just Russia») and some defense lawyers.

The receivers (not authors) of such petitions are currently Medvedev (current prime minister and former president), supreme state prosecution/oversight office (has some similarities and some differences with attorney general and his staff) and communication oversight agency (the agency responsible, among other things, for allocating radio frequencies and for keeping the internet censorship blocklist).

With FASHIONCLEFT being public knowledge, I'm surprised there's any controversy about this:

https://www.eff.org/document/20150117-spiegel-technical-desc...

I would hope that the US government would ban Windows 10 on government computers.

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