Hacker News Reader

Comment by sagivo | Hacker News Reader

I'm in the process of joining Amazon as a software engineer manager. I don't know how to respond to this article and if to continue the process with them.

View on HN

I have decided to stop the interview process with Amazon as a result of this article. Life is too short to have to deal with working in such a poisonous culture as described. I've had a few people mention how much Amazon sucks, at least in the Bay Area, but I thought maybe it was just a coincidence, but based on the article, it seems like it's their culture.

Both interviews I did with Amazon were pretty poor. I am a little upset by their advocacy and use of visa workers, as though there are no American engineers capable of doing the work. Facebook and other tech giants are guilty of this too.

I passed the interview process and was offered a position at Amazon. I was lucky enough to be offered another position the same week. I went for the latter, for many reasons, but a big one was the documented lack of work-life balance at Amazon. I love what I do, but life is short, life is precious, and I'm not going to give up the limited time I have with those I love for the sake of a job if I'm so lucky as to have the choice.

Keep this in mind: It's easier to find a job when you already have one. It takes the stress off the process and you automatically become more desirable for some reason.

If I were you I wouldn't cut off the opportunity immediately, but I would continue looking for another job at the same time. The world has changed in the last few decades in terms of job loyalty so there won't be any kind of stigma against you if you only stay for a short while and you can say "I was offered a better job" as the reason for leaving.

Counterpoint: Amazon's use and enforcement of noncompetes.

This is true I guess. I haven't seen their contract. I've never had an issue with any noncompetes in my contracts though. I can see why you wouldn't want to employ and train people in your business only for them to go to a direct competitor. I think that's fair, you just need to look for a good job in an unrelated business.

If a company wants me to not work in my field after I leave them, they can pay me for the condition. At a multiple of going market rates.

The reason people can work for the competition is that they're not slaves. There are few businesses Amazon doesn't compete with (all of retail, books, publishing, tech).

If they want their workers to stay, make the prospect attractive.

I'd skip it. I worked there for 5 years and hitting that mark was a big deal. A vp used to give bronzed Nike shoes for the 5 year anniversary. Also he stopped before I got one.

The article picks some of the most egregious stories but look beyond the horror stories and try to see the culture there. I've heard they've been trying to fix it, but I'm pretty sure that wilke or bezos still yell in the weekly business review meetings on a regular basis. Do you want to work in a 5% margin environment that is a retailer and you get yelled at?

It's purely anecdotal, but it's been a well known "fact" within my circle of developers that working for Amazon is a death march and not something you should consider unless you are desperate or intend to make it a short stint where they are offering a title and pay increase worth the 1-2 years of hell that working there would be.

True or not, perception is reality and Amazon has attained a rather poor reputation in the circles I travel. I have considered positions with them in the past but because of my perception of what working for them would mean, I've rejected several for not being worth it (pay increase not big enough), and one due to simple logistics (they wanted me in a city I wouldn't move to).

The perception I've gotten is somewhat different, though based on much of the same stories. I don't think Amazon is a horrible place to work, but it seems like a horrible place to stay for too long.

I had a roommate who was a nurse who and worked in a couple of area hospitals. When I asked her why she drove 90 minutes to one hospital rather than working all her hours at closer area hospitals, her response was, "That hospital is in a poorer area of town and gets all sorts of bizarre and desperate medical issues. It would take me 5 years at the other hospital to get the experience I'll get in six months a that hospital."

I think Amazon is like that hospital. It's an amazing place to grow and learn things you basically can't learn otherwise. And employers elsewhere know it. When I get an Amazon candidate who spent more than a year there, I can basically know ahead of time that that candidate will pass the technical part of the interview process. But once you've got that 1-2 years of experience, it's a place to leave, go elsewhere and get treated/paid better.

But again, this is based on anecdotal evidence from past Amazon employees...I've never worked there.

I think we're saying the same thing, but with different slants. The perception of Amazon right now (again, I don't know first hand) is that the work there is extremely intense to the point of maddening, and that can make it very attractive for certain people, and very unattractive for others. If you want to gain good experiences quickly and build your resume with a big name, it's a very viable option for you so long as you are willing to make the trade-off in work/life balance and stress. If you're no longer at that point in your career, it's not going to be for you.

I have stopped responding to Amazon recruiters because of workplace issues I keep reading about through the years. There wasn't a lot in the article that I found shocking.

I'm not saying that every department would be bad, so you could opt to continue to join them and see if you can run one of the more humane ones. Be careful though - you might not realize it if/when you slip into the ones described in the article.

I had interview opportunities with Amazon twice over the last few years and I've turned both down because of the reports of how badly they treat their workers. I made sure to tell the recruiter why and he said that they get that a lot now.

The article is nothing new. The work environment at Amazon has been a discussion for years at this point.

Don't bail out. Take the driver's seat and force them to meet your terms. Ask for a personal meeting with Jeff to pitch you and the company and respond personally to the article. Get multiple offers and see if they are really unable to give you a competitive offer. After you've done a thorough evaluation you can decide whether to move ahead; and they can't be upset if you pass given the publicity. But your opponent is on the ropes right now and it's truly the best time to try to score a sweetened offer.

A great point, which I haven't heard anywhere else in this discussion. We the job hunters have the ability to bend the job to our expectation before we start. It's a negotiation, it's an uncomfortable conversation, sure, but it will absolutely pay off no matter what happens in the end. As a bonus, I believe that one gains respect when one speaks up at a job interview and demands what they need to be successful.

Also, this works for every job, everywhere. Very wise advice.

As long as you're not under contract, you might as well find out for yourself if you like it or not.

It's getting to the point where having Amazon on your resume is a negative, though.

How so? Technical reasons, or because people assume you've been steeped in a toxic culture long enough that you're radioactive yourself?

It is not at all getting to that point.

Not true - I'd say 9/10 Seattle area companies would LOVE to have an ex-Amazon employee join the team. It has a major reputation locally for "put in your 2 years then work wherever you want in Seattle"

I mean, Amazon is not, say, RealNetworks. Real has that reputation for me if you've been there longer than a year. If you've been at Amazon for years, I'm going to dig in but I'm not going to automatically assume it's a negative like I will with Real. It's on the cusp, but not an automatic thing.

There are good teams and bad teams: if you feel like spending the time, you could roll the dice and see if you land on a good one. Else quit. My few Amazon friends are on good teams.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com