It's in the privacy policy. I didn't believe what I was reading. Windows 10 is unusable for anyone handling any sensitive data. Think doctors, psychologists, anyone under an NDA.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.asp...
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.asp...
“Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. Data sent to Microsoft for product improvement is put through rigorous, multi-pass scrubs to remove sensitive or identifiable fields (such as email addresses, passwords and alphanumeric data) and strings are chopped into very small bits and stripped of sequence data to prevent the information from being identified or put back together.”
http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-10-privacy-issues-exaggera...
It amazes me that this information isn't easier to find and I end up being the one defending Microsoft. I definitely recommend using Free Software only if you want to be absolutely sure of confidentiality.
In any event, during the installation process, you do see a screen where you can turn all this off. It's not off by default, but viewing these settings was part of my Windows 10 installation experience.
Otherwise wouldn't every commonly misspelled word show up incorrectly in spellcheck?
There is quite a bit of work in the field of speech recognition, too, and it's entirely possible to create a functional model without recording every user's voice and storing that information on a server. Even if they require speech samples, or samples from different languages, they should at least pay someone for that information.
I was disappointed when I learned that the voice recognition feature in Siri wasn't local to the phone.
Do you know what actual data is, and is not, sent to Microsoft as you use your device?
Even if you do, will you still know once Microsoft pushes a mandatory update and/or changes its 12,000 word terms of service?
The problem is that Windows 10 does not respect you having this turned off. It will send away your data, even if you turned off all the switches.
Don't you see this as a huge problem?
Various security measures rename sensitive fields into things that are basically random strings that are stored in a session. [e.g. Fields to change your password? They are set to something like 2ajefklaj23324rk]
There is also the issue of people who write erotica for fun. Or doctors writing down notes for patients.
So, has anybody ever audited build farms for Debian, Ubuntu, etc? Have we ever seen a breakdown of their income sources? How do you know that the binaries you install are built from the sources you can browse or download from the net?
Do you compile everything yourself?
For the situation I'm talking about where absolute confidentiality is required, the right way to do it would absolutely be auditing all code and compiling from source, assuming you're working in an organization that has that kind of capacity.
But for most cases, just dealing with an organization you trust is enough, whether they provide source or not.
Ah, good to know. Do you have any links to articles or discussions about this? Would like to learn more.
/LOL.
If so, that sounds unbelievably error prone. What if your password is of the "correct horse battery staple" form, rather than the standard unreadable scramble? It seems impossible to reliably distinguish that from other text. Does that mean that Microsoft then has your password? Even anonymized, that's a massive problem.
Passwords and the like are probably identified by the type of field they're entered into, as Windows forms and websites have explicit identifiers for passwords, and it would be easy not to record this. I think this analysis is more for things like analyzing the frequency of terms and which characters tend to follow other characters, but I don't have much more information, and I agree that there needs to be more shared about how this works.
You type "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog." You continue typing other stuff. 30 minutes later, there's a queue of random slices like: { "lazy dog", "chocolate donut", "brown fox" }. That gets encrypted and sent into a big pile of other data for a machine learning algorithm to develop better typing prediction.
I would like to know if that's the gist of it or if there are other things happening. Hopefully there will at least be a developer blog or something like that to better explain it.
> only "some"
99% is still "some". Regardless, since when is "some" keyloging acceptable?
> too much data
That depends on a lot of factors. Text is small and trivial compared to most stuff on the internet these days. How many kilobytes per day of text does the median windows user even type?
It would be even easier for MS to filter out stuff like video games (DirectInput?) to reduce the size.
> I think
Guessing is useless. What matters is the data going over the wire and what authorized MS to do in the future.
> there needs to be more shared about how this works
No, there needs to be explicit informed consent form the user.
Most people probably like all that, but I would like to see more robust privacy settings to easily disable tracking whenever it's desired.
You mean, like this?
# apt-get update && apt-get upgrade
Granted, running that isn't 'forced', but given that OSS users don't _actually_ analyze the code in their software, it's basically the same thing.
There's always a chance of something being slipped in later, no matter what OS you're on. Rampant paranoia and conspiracy theorizing does no one any good.
The problem of inspecting the code itself is a separate issue entirely, though at least in the area of Free Software that inspection is possiblea, and reproducible (deterministic) will simply the problem. Good luck doing the same with Windows (or any other closed software).
> Rampant paranoia and conspiracy theorizing
Now you're simply resorting to either insults (and/or wilful ignorance).
I think it's you that missed my point.
> people choose when (and if) they upgrade, for a variety of complex reasons
If they're running Gentoo, or maybe a small group of other distros, sure. Otherwise, people (on all operating systems) don't really do a lot of choosing at all. If updates are available, they generally run them. The only picking and choosing I've ever seen from the vast majority of people (including technical folks) is if they don't have the bandwidth/time to update a particularly large piece of software at the moment. Of course, they'll update it later when they are able.
> The problem of inspecting the code itself is a separate issue entirely, though at least in the area of Free Software that inspection is possible
Yes, it's possible, but it isn't done in practice, which is why I said it. That's the reason I said it's 'basically the same thing'. Whether you receive updates automatically or choose when to download them, you are still accepting what the distribution method gives you. There are FAR too many software packages out there for the average person to work out the logistics of reading accounts from early adopters of every single point release.
> Now you're simply resorting to either insults (and/or wilful ignorance).
It's not an insult. It's a factual statement. You claimed in your comment that a multi-billion dollar corporation who has a vested interest in keeping the good will of their customers (some of whom are corporate, some government, but the vast majority are consumers who look to them for help) would willfully send compromised software through forced updates in the future. If that isn't a conspiracy theory, I'd love to know what is.
Apparently you need to get out more, because you seem to have missed that "not upgrading" is so incredibly common that some major software packages (web browsers) and at least one operating systems have decided to force upgrades.
Also, do you really believe that all the IT departments in the world are running current versions of anything? There are entire industries that run "last year's" versions, who only upgrade after extensive testing.
> I'd love to know what is
Did you even read the thread you're replying to? You're knee-jerk application of the paranoid-style[1] ignores the fact that "It's in the privacy policy." There is not secret. MS is telling everyone they will send forced updates (which have already cause stability issues for some people). As for MS keeping "the good will of their customers", again, did your read this thread? Windows 10 has already forced various professionals to drop windows.
Also, "compromised" is your term, not mine. I'm sure any future update they push out will be buzzword compliant. The point is we don't know what future updates will bring, but you agree to run those future versions anyway.
--
Meh. I have better things to do than waste any more time on your distractions. If you want to be the apparatchik that refuses to believe MS would do anything malicious, that's your business.
[1] http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-ame...
Honestly it does not look like you wasted much time at all, you seem to have missed his point again.
I'd like to see precisely how they anonymize the data, and I'd also like to know what data it is.
If Microsoft was a known moral bastion who had perfect security might not be a problem. But it isn't and it doesn't, so there is only one response: NO!
(OK, there are more responses, but I'm not sure if they are allowed with HN's code of conduct.)
"When you interact with your Windows device by speaking, writing (handwriting), or typing, Microsoft collects speech, inking, and typing information—including information about your Calendar and People (also known as contacts)—that helps personalize your experience. This information improves your device’s ability to correctly recognize your input, such as your pronunciation and handwriting. You can turn the Speech, inking, and typing setting (which is called Getting to know you) on or off in Settings.
Note: If you want to use Cortana, you must have Getting to know you turned on.
We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions. Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. You can turn the Send Microsoft info about how I write setting on or off in Settings."
1. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-...
ref: https://jonathan.porta.codes/2015/07/30/windows-10-seems-to-...
Also, it seems that Win10 ignores some of these settings: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3gm1e3/what_wind...
I've no problem with them doing this sort of thing, but it must be opt-in rather than opt-out. Like you say, this isn't just about individual privacy concerns, it's about important legal obligations that people may unwittingly be violating if they use Windows 10.
I'd think that the security concerns would be functionally identical.
There are plenty of practice management cloud solutions with cloud storage support which are hipaa compliant.
Swinging back to topic: Microsoft has traditionally had a good rapport with the business / government space, so I'll be shocked if they don't already have a plan for addressing the need to protect private data. Maybe the enterprise solution version of Windows 10 will have this feature off by default?
For example Office 365 for Healthcare which is HIPAA compliant has probably quite a different privacy policy and out of the box authentication, encryption and right management settings than what you would get as an individual or even by buying Office 365 for business editions.
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/health/products/office365/def...
Not saying that's right, but most companies that provide free/subsidizes consumer services including companies like Google tend to have quite a different SLA and service terms for corporate customers.
Android voice recognition might raise similar problems; the Google search engine less so. You can use Google Search without putting any protected information into it; OTOH, if an OS is capturing all of your typing and inking and sending it to another party, anything you do by typing or inking that involves protected information is being sent, so (in the HIPAA case) unless you have a BAA in place, and both parties have both the technical and administrative safeguards required under HIPAA, using it for PHI is going to involve regular illegal disclosures.
Windows 10 is harvesting and relaying every-fucking-thing you type on your operating system.
I will not waste my time to MITM SSL traffic and break down binary blobs to find out, whether it contains something I just typed. It sends out unwanted traffic when I type into start menu --> onus is on Microsoft to be transparent, what it sends out. And to allow user to disable that behavior.
The problem is that, by way of Windows 10 effectively having a keylogger installed, pretty much any EMR accessed via a Windows 10 machine is automatically insecure, since the data entered into said EMR is being sniffed and sent to a third party. If Microsoft experiences any sort of data breach, hospitals throughout the U.S. will be having a HIPAA/HITECH hell-day.
> Windows 10, rather than residing as a static software program on your device, key components of Windows are cloud-based, and both cloud and local elements of Windows are updated regularly, providing you with the latest improvements and features. In order to provide this computing experience, we collect data about you, your device, and the way you use Windows. And because Windows is personal to you, we give you choices about the personal data we collect and how we use it.
Apart from the data we don't give you a choice about. And the choices we opt to ignore anyway.
I'm considering using a secondary computer (linux) for all of my personal internet activity and making my windows box purely game dev / gaming.
Took me a few weeks to completely replace my Windows workflow in OSX and Ubuntu but I'd say the broader perspective of knowing all three platforms when being a programmer is well worth the investment!
I'd have to say, Uncharted played a small role in this transition; I've been blown away by this series and they're not available for PC, so there :)
I personally just game on a Linux box (running Slackware, specifically). I don't get the best selection in the world, but most of the indie games seem to be paying attention to Linux/SteamOS, and said games tend to be the better ones anyway.
Do you own an Xbone? I hope not for your sake as Windows 10 is coming to that too.
(If I'm being pedantic, other consoles have used Windows in some way. I'm not sure about the Xbox 360 but IIRC the OS for the original Xbox was based on Windows 2000. The Dreamcast also had limited support for Windows CE, I don't think the main OS was based on it, but a few games used it).
I don't care how good your data gets anonymized; time and again, it's been shown that anonymized data can be fingerprinted and de-anonymized over time.
Whether or not this is happening, this should raise legitimate concerns with people who are considering, or who have already upgraded to Windows 10.
I'm fairly certain things under NDA won't go near Windows 10, even if anonymous the data is still leaked. Just like these things currently stay far away from 3rd-party services.