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Comment by codexjourneys | Hacker News Reader

Teflon has been known to be toxic for years. I'm not sure why "default trust" is a good position when dealing with companies like DuPont and Monsanto that have been caught lying to the public before. "Default suspicion" seems like the more cautious and logical approach here.

It's been more than a decade since I cooked with Teflon. I use glass, stainless steel, cast iron, or ceramic/enamel (love that old original Corningware from eBay!).

Much like eating real food, it's not hard to switch and the result tastes better.

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I get irritated at the "but science!" crowd on these issues... Not because they are always wrong but because they don't get the social undercurrents at work here.

People preemptively reject GMOs for a fairly rational reason: they come from industries and an establishment with a hard documented history of lying and covering up problems. If a confirmed pathological liar comes to you with a new product and tells you it's safe...

I asked someone I knew who was very anti-GMO once if shs would consider them if they were being designed and tested by open non-profit agencies with a dedication to the public interest. She said yes.

For quite a few people, perhaps most, it's not some superstitious fear of the technology per se but a very rational distrust of the people who are wielding it.

> and the result tastes better

I don't doubt all your other points, but why did you include this one?

Are you claiming that teflon-coated surfaces somehow add a taste, or demonstrably change the texture of the food cooked on it?

I've tried both and like the result from stainless steel and Corningware better. Granted, I was using older-style pans made a decade or so ago. YMMV, though the Teflon is not healthy for high-heat cooking. I avoid it, why bother?

> Teflon has been known to be toxic for years.

No it hasn't.

Teflon is not toxic at all.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as assume you are just confusing it with precursors to teflon instead of teflon itself.

Yes, precursors are toxic. But it's also easy to overheat a Teflon pan when preparing to fry something up, and it's not healthy:

"Use low or medium heat with Teflon skillets and pans. When Teflon-coated cookware is overheated, the cookware releases fumes that may cause flu-like symptoms in humans." http://homeguides.sfgate.com/dangers-scratched-teflon-cookwa...

I prefer other types of cookware, for myself.

The problem with that advise is that oil releases MORE toxic fumes at a lower temperature than teflon.

Teflon is safer than the oil you are cooking with. If you heated it hot enough to make fumes from the teflon you would have a cloud of smoke from the oil.

They know this because did a test and found that oil is more toxic to birds than teflon.

So go ahead and cook with teflon on high, it's safer than using a lot of burning oil.

Feel free to use Teflon if you like it. I don't like it and don't trust DuPont in general. I'll cook with high-smoke-point oils using cookware I prefer, and take my chances.

You keep claiming that heated oil is a greater killer than heated Teflon. Do you have any sources where people can examine the evidence, or any evidence that you can present directly? I just can't find any evidence at all for your claims, even though you've posted the same thing about 12 times.

You didn't look very hard.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0002889738506828

Exposure of Japanese Quail and Parakeets to the Pyrolysis Products of Fry Pans Coated with Teflon® and Common Cooking Oils

Lethal temperature:

butter: 260°C/500°F

Teflon: 330°C/626°F

plastic handle: 370°C/698°F

All three authors work for DuPont. What do you expect they will find?

"FRANKLIN D. GRIFFITHa, SUSAN S. STEPHENSa & FIGEN O. TAYFUNa"

"Author affiliations" Footnote a: "a Haskell Laboratory for Toxicology and Industrial Medicine, E. I. du Pont de Nemours and Company, Wilmington, Delaware 19898"

> What do you expect they will find?

I expect them to tell the truth. Do you accuse them of lying?

Because this is a very straightforward piece of research, it's not one of those cases where you can fudge the numbers with statistics, to cherry pick results out of nothing.

I'm willing to believe that if this study had bad results they might not have published it (which is why affiliated-type studies usually have "good" results). But since they did publish it, I am not willing to believe they lied.

Plus it's well known birds will die from smoke, it's also quite well known at what point butter or oil will smoke. This isn't very complicated research, and it fits perfectly with other known information.

If you still have doubts after this then that is simply your bias, not logic.

Let’s be clear: You’re telling me that because I don’t simply accept the results of a clearly biased study at face value, I am biased.

You’re right: I already said my default position is suspicion when dealing with companies that have lied profusely in the past.

I’m going to sign off and stop thinking about why you are pushing your point in multiple places in this thread. Maybe I’ll cook some steak in a stainless steel pan. Subversive, I know :-)

> You’re telling me that because I don’t simply accept the results of a clearly biased study at face value, I am biased.

No. I am telling you your reasons are illogical.

> and stop thinking about why you are pushing your point in multiple places in this thread

It's not complicated. I happen to know something, so I am telling people.

If you are starting to think I have other motives then that's clearly a pattern in your mind and you will have to decide for yourself why you do that.

There are ways of being dishonest other than lying. For example, the smoke point of butter is 150°C, well below the 260°C lethal temperature the DuPont scientists found, so it'd be extremely difficult to reach that temperature by accident. On the other hand, Teflon fumes can (and fairly often do) kill birds at levels that aren't noticeable to human cooks at all.

Another good alternative cookware is Le Creuset. They make nice enameled cast-iron products, and they work well. I think Costco carries them as a white-label now and then.

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