Hacker News Reader

Comment by mosselman | Hacker News Reader

The Netherlands. The only requirement is that you learn Dutch at a very basic level. Apart from that everybody, and I mean everybody, speaks English and the standards of living are among the highest in the world. Sure beats living on a mattress in some illegal housing in L.A.

View on HN

I've been living in the Netherlands for nearly 7 years and haven't even tried to learn Dutch yet. Completely concur that it's an easy and wonderful country to live in, and there's tons of work for good software developers.

They must love you there :-). I lived in Belgium/W Flanders and some people were getting angry that I don't know Dutch...

I don't know where you lived exactly, but i do live in West-Flanders.

West-Flanders is actually (almost) Dutch only, not a lot of IT in here and a lot of agricultre. I don't mind, but i suppose a lot of older people ( who don't know english) could have a hard time having a conversation with you :)

Where did you live?

Blankenberge. Was there for a couple of months, quaint little town, and close to Brugge, which is also very nice :-)

Lol, that's a half an hour drive from here.. Would be funny if you still were there :p ( considering i don't see much belgians here and especially people located in West-Flanders )

Another person from West-Flanders here :-)

Nice, would love to meet up sometimes. We probably have similar intrests. And that's quite rare in West-Flanders :p

Language is an extremely touchy subject in Flanders, not something exclusive for West Flanders. Not everybody in Flanders is like that, but it is certainly not a minority also. My father is (West-)Flemish and my mother is French so because of that I always looked at it in other view then most people who grew up in Flanders.

I'm West-Flemish myself and still live here, but I also get my share of snarky remarks of blogging in English or reading stuff primary in English. If you have a website with some text in Dutch and you make a spelling mistake then you will certainly get (angry) mails about it. Or when you use an English word instead of a Dutch, for some that is another capital offence.

If that sounds ridiculous keep in mind we have people proverbial running after busses and filling complaints when the bus company dares to advertise something with English words in it.

Ans seeing how many Dutch related contests Flemish participants win, I have sometimes the feeling that we are better in Dutch than our neighbours in the Netherlands. So yeah the Dutch language is really important in this part of the world.

For some things I can see the benefits of being able to promote (or even force) the local language. I'm personally convinced that from a social POV it helps when your neighbour understands you and speaks the same languages.

But on the other hand in the global age we are living we shouldn't overestimate the importance of it. It sometimes depresses me if I see how much energy gets lost in those kind of discussions.

I mean, I didn't mind learning it, in fact I can understand it pretty well on paper. But understanding spoken Dutch/Flemish was nearly impossible, and I could not make proper sentences for a conversation.

The people were very nice (like, almost Hot Fuzz nice :-D), probably why the few who berated my Dutch speaking abilities stood out :-)

I heard it is a very difficult language to master if you are foreign. It took my mother some time to be fluent at it. Also have some former colleague's - Bulgarian/Russian - who even after 10 years of living here still have difficulties.

Fortunately a lot of people don't mind if you aren't fluent in it as they value the effort more then being 100% correct. And those who react hostile just don't understand how difficult the language is. Hell even natives have sometimes problems with all the grammatical rules the Dutch language has!

Hot fuzz is really one of my favourite movies, then again I'm a bit of an anglophile regarding movies/series/... . :-) I lived btw also in Blankenberge for 12 years and born in Bruges. Nowadays I live at the other end of West Flanders.

I wondered what type is your visa to stay in the Netherlands, and could you explain how did you get it?

> haven't even tried to learn Dutch yet

How come? Just no interest? Don't like it?

Immigration into Netherland is not trivial at all. As far as I understand, you can get a permit if either your salary is above a certain threshold (it's got to be a pretty good job), or your employer and convincingly argue that he can't find someone with the right skill set locally. Unfortunately, "programmer" may be the skill set here. I don't think there's much room for recognizing specific expertise. Then again, my impression is that there's a lot of demand for programmers; I don't know any unemployed ones, and tons of recruiters complain they can't find anyone.

So it's worth a shot. Looks like we could use more programmers here.

As a Dutchman I'm sad to report that the situation seems to be changing. Getting permission for your spouse to come here for example is becoming harder and harder.

For Highly Skilled Migrant visa, you shouldn't know Dutch. I have Russian friends there who already got Highly Skilled Migrant visa and they don't know Dutch at all.

Only requirement is to get job offer with enough salary.

I wonder how much they pay there, I work in France, and almost all the beginners devs, are payed between 30K and 25K annually that's about 2500euro / month minus 25% tax.

How is that possible if the foreigners need to get a Schengen visa? It seems that it's harder to get these days... I remember about a decade ago people getting Schengen visas to Hungary then going to Germany or anywhere else for work.

A schengen visa doesn't allow you to work. At the moment, it only grants you a stay of upto 90 days in the schengen area and for most countries, it's not possible to change the visa once you're in the country. If you want to work, you're required to go back to your home country or outside the schengen area and apply for a work visa/permit. All this is based on the assumption that you're a non EU/EEA national

That really doesn't stop those who are desperate for work. They "visited" Hungary or went to "buy a car", and then hightailed it to Italy, Germany, Netherlands to work illegally. Not sure how they got back home, probably deported and banned...

But in this case, to work legally, he'd need a work visa as you say, which I imagine is even harder to get?

And the work visa requirements would be?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com