GNU Mailman is now hosted on GitLab
list.org
list.org
We use Gitlab at work and I like it very much (but as it replaced Subversion, maybe I'm a little biased).
Edit: Fixed the stupid Github/Gitlab swap
A few friends and I spun up our own instance of the CE about a week ago because we weren't too happy about Github's stance. It was incredibly easy to set up and it works flawlessly on a small 1 core, 2Gb VM.
A little off topic but can you share the effect the recent Github stuff has had for Gitlab? Did you get a lot more traffic?
https://github.com/gitlabhq/gitlabhq/blob/master/CONTRIBUTIN...
You're welcome.
https://github.com/blog/2039-adopting-the-open-code-of-condu...
http://todogroup.org/opencodeofconduct/
>Physical contact and simulated physical contact (eg, textual descriptions like “hug” or “backrub”) without consent or after a request to stop
>Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding:
‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’
Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you”
Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts
Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenial
Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions
Saying "we're going to protect some groups but not others" is absolutely abhorrent. Either forbid all racism or allow everything (and just to make this clear: I'm very much on the side of forbidding all racism, no matter what race it targets), but saying "we'll allow hate speech about one race but we'll remove hate speech about another" is the literal definition of endorsing racism.
And then the bit about "tone"; they're basically saying that they explicitly allow blatant incivility. Now, that wouldn't be so bad if they had a "we never remove anything" policy, but they clearly don't. If they're going to remove bad content, then they need to have a policy of "keep a civil tongue in your mouth or get it cut out".
Also, as a trans girl, I don't tolerate anyone in my life saying "die cis scum" or #KillAllMen, and I call that shit out.
(edit: so, this apparently applies only to the projects GitHub maintains themselves and isn't a site-wide thing, so it's not as bad as I've feared, but I still don't like it)
It does prohibit all racism. ("We will not tolerate discrimination based on any of the protected characteristics above [including race]".)
It's impossible and unreasonable to forbid all discrimination. It deliberately discriminates against racists, for example.
"Blatant incivility" would not be welcoming, so would be counter to the stated goals. The statement is instead that 'Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenial' is not an actionable complaint.
For example, if you believe otherwise then - and to use an example of a tone argument that I do not mean to direct to you - "Why don't you calm down and we can discuss this like adults?" This is a tone argument which implicitly and incorrectly assumes that only someone who is emotionally upset (and likely unjustifiably so) would have made that sort of statement.
I believe the overall policy is along the lines of "keep a civil tongue .." that you propose, though with more details about what is considered "civil".
Feminism is sexism. As is MensRights. Any group that puts one sex above or "equal" (think Animal Farm version of equal) is sexist. Same also applies to race. Race shouldn't matter, period.
People actually do that? Just thinking about a stranger writing that to me makes me a bit creeped out, like a minor version of how Merkel reacted when Bush gave her a quick backrub.
Because people who aren't transsexual exist, and it sometimes is useful to refer to the group of people sharing that characteristic, and its more convenient to do so by a term that doesn't involve the negation of another trait.
It's very easy to double numbers when these numbers are minuscule to start with.
Regardless, this is majorly exciting and this growth is a tremendous leap for the open source community.
This is GitLab.com (the SaaS) and about.gitlab.com (our static website) combined http://i.imgur.com/HzaqlAN.png
https://gitlab.com/groups/mailman
And it took a good 30 seconds to load. Even when I refresh it's 10 seconds before I get an html response at all, and then I see a loading indicator for another 10-20 seconds.
Any feature which cannot be self-hosted, and any minified JavaScript served to the users without the corresponding source code available. A GNU project depending on SaaS harms GNU's mission.
I'm not sure if this is still the case, but GNU Mailman was using JIRA, too, which is also very bad.
With a GNU entousiast we looked into the javascript issue, all source code is available via https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ee and the license ensures all downloaded javascript from GitLab.com is MIT licensed https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ee/blob/master/LICENSE#...
Awesome! I didn't know about that. That resolves the biggest issue for users. I'm very happy you folks took the time to do that.
Would you or someone else like to help? (Contact me at mtg@gnu.org)
What monsters.
I worked with Sytse Sijbrandij (GitLab B.V. CEO) back in May to ensure that all JavaScript served to the client---and all scripts that generate it---is free:
https://about.gitlab.com/2015/05/20/gitlab-gitorious-free-so...
[0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...
But I still dream of an unequivocally free Git server and Web application, preferably written in Python rather than Ruby. Is there a reason Github, GitLab, and the now-dead Gitorious all chose Ruby?
Thank you.
But I would like it all integrated nicely with the git web interface.
Aw, man... My username is taken. I'm echelon at gmail, twitter, github... I hate usernames so much sometimes.
We've seen what happens with monopolised infrastructure with github recently. I hope the whole github fiasco will bring more people to gitlab.
"We will not act on complaints regarding ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’" which is stupid and not really a thing. It's not reverse racism, its just racism.
Also, GitHub has been removing other projects, like some Gamergate ones (like this markdown only repo: http://imgur.com/a/CMRVq). Regardless of your opinion on Gamergate, the repos weren't violating the ToS and shouldn't have been removed.
EDIT: to be clear, people who believe that reverse racism isn't a thing are semantically correct, it's just racism. And whether it's against a minority or majority group - terms which, themselves, are prime to define a disparity between two groups - it's unjustifiable.
It is also not clear to me if the CoC applies to behavior outside the community, or re. nonmembers.
It's racism, but with a modifier to make it clear what's being talked about. I don't know why you're trying so hard to make it "not a thing".
The CoC is terrible, but fortunately it only applies to the projects GitHub maintains themselves, and it's not a site-wide thing.
I consider GitHub to be a an employment related website and treat it as such. It's like my resume. I'm not going to write my opinions about politics and social issues across my resume so I don't comment on this stuff there or get involved in any shape or form and you shouldn't either. It's not the place.
But "safe spaces" are taking things way too far. If you have to constantly self censor yourself because the person on the other side may get upset and get you or your project banned, it hinders discussion, critique, feedback, reviews, etc.
It's not just "toxic angry people" who are being forced out. With policies like this, we see time and time again that people holding certain viewpoints or disagreeing with other people are affected too. Even if they are politely doing so.
- "There's no such thing as reverse racism (because any kind of discrimination based on race is racism and we shouldn't be diminishing some kinds of discrimination)"
- "There's no such thing as reverse racism (because it's impossible to be racist against people who are in the Oppressive Group category)"
It's a namespace collision that can inadvertently give "support to the other side."
Though, it's the same thing with words like "racist." There's a generally universal desire in our society to not want to be "racist" in the sense of "common-usage-racism," discriminating against others based on group identities. Thrown into this mix is a new "academic-racism" definition of "racist," which requires "privilege+power" and demotes anything that doesn't fit into mere "discrimination" (which apparently isn't a bad thing anymore by itself?).
The reason why this new concept (which, let's be honest, is different than the common-usage meaning of racism) has the same name is because there is an ideological/political strength in namespace collisions or identifier overloading. By using the same taboo word for two different concepts, the new meaning can insert itself as the dominant meaning.
Is this "academic-racism" an American thing or is it universally accepted in academia?
I hope not, that seems wrong.
Prejudice (against a ethnicity, culture, class, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc) is wrong no matter the percentage of the majority/minority doing it involved
First one I can recall was the meritocracy scandal, where they tried to put a rug promoting meritocracy, and their in-house feminist Julie-Ann Horvath (nudged by her friends) complained in the general sense of "meritocracy is bad since it's racist and sexist". The caved in and removed the rug.
Said Julie-Ann Horvath later got in a fight with a (CEO&founder)'s wife, left the company and made another huge scandal. She accused the company of sexism and sexual harassment (independent investigator found none, and other female Github engineers said there was nothing wrong), accused a co-worker of systematically removing her code from repos since, I quote, "I wouldn't let him fuck me" (independent investigator found that he was actually fixing her errors), and that CEO's wife overstepped her boundaries and used company resources for her own projects [1] (independent investigator found that to be true, and CEO stepped down).
JAH also complained of terrible sexual harassment - that is, men looking at women spinning hula hoops. Women did not complain, but JAH got offended on their behalf anyway.
In the end, she left with a loud door slam, smeared a bunch of Github people, and in general had a huge meltdown on Twitter, as you do.
Then, as mentioned, there was a bunch of scandals where people had their repos removed (like C+=, a language satirizing the more, uh, out-there ideas expressed by the feminists; or a few repos related to GamerGate).
The latest in a series was a repo threatened with removal (or removed?) for using the word 'retarded'.
Then they added a CoC endorsing anti-white racism and anti-male sexism: "Github's new Code of Conduct says "Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort." and will not act on "reverse" racism, sexism, etc." [2]
Well, at least we have BitBucket, GitLab et al.
----------------------------------------
[1] That's one empowered woman! What's not to like here? - TA
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/3fpnuw/githubs_...
This is particularly fun to note, because it shows that these investigators were not being easy/taking the side of the CEO. In short, it gives strong evidence they really were independent investigators.
I wonder how big this cultural divide really is, or if it just seems this big online. In my usual workplaces, nobody would be as systematically angry as you seem to be about a woman and a company asking other people to be nice.
Furthermore, people are attempting to hold on to their ability to speak freely, to not have to monitor their own speech. There is no way to stop other people from being offended. No matter what you do, it will be offensive to someone. So should that person have the right to police you and to take down something that's yours? And what if you disagree with that person?
For a comparison, say you have a party at your house that gets out of hand. Too many strangers show up. So you explicitly state that all guests are required to leave. There is a difference between telling some people they can stay (or saying I won't call the cops if you stay, but I'll call the cops on anyone else who stays) and just ignoring the few people who don't leave.
Also, why are you assuming they are a man?
Honestly I assumed it because his comments just read like a bitter MRA. But if you want, you can click his profile and confirm it for yourself like I did.
"Why do you assume a member who spouts KKK rhetoric is a white person?!?" -okasaki
If anything betrays their political bent, it is that they view this as a negative thing. But the same could be said of those who do not view this as a negative thing.
Honestly, saying that anything you do will be offensive is a weak evasion of personal responsibility. It's like saying that you might as well eat Big Macs for every meal since all food can be unhealthy, under certain circumstances. While the premise is technically true, the conclusion is flawed. It's a spectrum, with behavior on one end being better than behavior on the other end.
To your last point, of course some rando who's offended by my statement should haven't the right to police me or take down something I wrote. But they do have the right to respond to what I wrote, point it out to others, argue with me, criticize me for it, etc. And I have the right to argue back, ignore them, or even – as crazy as it sounds – consider if their feelings might be sincere and worth me reevaluating my statement.
Anyway, this became longer than I intended. I'm just trying to say that, to paraphrase Carl Sagan, as fellow creatures inhabiting this pale blue dot, we have an obligation to deal kindly with one another. The fact that some people are jerks doesn't obviate that.
I am not advocating of getting rid of kindness, and I think that preventing racism is a noble idea. And I'm not obviating a responsibility to avoid offending people by commenters who want to be taken seriously. But in the end, it is nearly impossible to entirely rid yourself of offense. Freedom of speech is necessary for productive environments, and it's been proven that people behave differently and speak differently when they know they're being watched.
There's a difference between attempting to be taken seriously and being disingenuous about who you are and they way you think. I believe in freedom of speech above all.
The other way to use retard as an insult is to use it against people with a learning disability. I don't think that's what you're defending -- verbal aggression by mostly rich programmers of mostly poor vulnerable people.
> I believe in freedom of speech above all.
Not right to life?
My go-to example is generally something along the lines of, religious people might be offended by atheist philosophies. Does that mean atheists should refrain from speaking about their beliefs to avoid potentially offending someone? What about the reverse, should religious people refrain from speaking about religion to avoid offending people of a different (or no) religion?
Or for an example closer to the context of the discussion, is it rude or offensive to argue that a wage gap between men and women doesn't actually exist? Or that employers shouldn't hire women purely based on a need to balance out a gender disparity in their employees?
I'm sure there are plenty of people would be offended by those arguments. Does that mean people should refrain from using them?
Actually, the above is two examples. One where I stop after the first sentence, one where I include both. It is extremely offensive to some people, and the second (extended) version even includes a call to action that can be considered outright harmful (but done to reduce what is viewed by those who take the call as a greater harm).
Now in some cases, such as talking to someone who holds an anti-vaxxer view point, being offensive is counter productive. But when calling those already on your side to action, using such wording can motivate and mobilize others in ways that more sanitized language cannot.
Well said, it's hard to convey severity without using severe language.
Please explain how removing a rug promoting meritocracy makes things better for women.
Remember that the term "meritocracy" was coined in a satirical essay about a dystopian society. It was not meant to have positive connotations.
I suppose I need to give my slightly inaccurate summary: trying to judge people just based upon their contributions ends up only benefiting the elite who had unfair advantages to begin with, and intentionally silences any effort to compensate people who have inherent social disadvantages.
But the actual article, which I have my doubts you've read, explains this better.
Sorry, I had read it before. I just didn't really get an opportunity to discuss it.
> I suppose I need to give my slightly inaccurate summary: trying to judge people just based upon their contributions ends up only benefiting the elite who had unfair advantages to get those advantages, and intentionally silences any effort to compensate people who have inherent social disadvantages.
I'm not saying perfect meritocracy is something we have, but it's something we should strive for and act under at least. We shouldn't over or undervalue contributions just because someone is a certain race/gender/etc in my opinion. It's patronizing and to do so seems only to contribute to the problem further.
The goal of an open source project should not be to fix social disadvantages but to produce the best possible product. They do this best via meritocracy, accepting contributions happily from anyone and choosing the best of them, not by rewarding or punishing people for things which they cannot change. Doing so makes the resulting product worse as you're not getting the best code from the best people, but instead discriminating on other factors unrelated to your end goal.
Is it really "racist" or "sexist" to say this? Is it not the truth?
EDIT: Added some wording to clarify.
Why? Lots of open source projects have social goals; for example, there's the Debian Social Contract, the Mozilla Manifesto, and Ubuntu is itself named after an humanitarian philosophy. These goals often override technical quality: Debian will rather ship a more buggy and incomplete FOSS software than one which doesn't comply with the Social Contract.
To answer why: because people want quality software and political agendas are a niche at best. There are much better places to address such things.
I don't agree with the notion that you can neatly separate "politics" from the rest of your life. Every action that you do which affects others is inherently political, and publicly distributing software is no different. By just following along, one is simply weakly supporting the status quo - which might be fine, but should be consciously chosen nevertheless.
Regarding whether I want worse software because of my political opinions, it's not really relevant what I want; I do consider having social goals as a valid position for an open source / free software project.
I am not supporting the status quo, I am simply supporting the best possible software we can produce. And I don't believe we produce that by rewarding or punishing people based on factors they can't change. This is not a matter of "following along", this is a matter of using the best people to the best of their abilities, regardless of these factors.
Freedom 0 according to the FSF is the freedom to use the software for any purpose (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html). Genocide included. I don't see why that would make anyone switch unless the authors publicly said "yes, we support this genocide".
Software is a tool, plain and simple. A better example right now would be Tor or Bitcoin. People aren't flocking away from those for their use in crimes...
"We are not mistreating them! We are treating them equally. We are keeping the races separate because [whatever reason], but nobody is being mistreated. We are being well-intentioned and everyone can still have equality."
The people who believed and supported separate-but-equal were genuinely thinking they were well-intentioned. They thought it was a good and necessary thing.
Many still do about a small subset of life. Separate bathrooms, separate living quarters, separate locker rooms, etc.
Perhaps, just perhaps...instead of spending time dealing with the rug, she could have brushed up on her coding skills (since someone else had to fix her coding defects for her)?
Overcoming social disadvantage requires some work, you know.
She might not be socially disadvantaged with respect to inner city dwellers, but she's still socially disadvantaged with respect to men.
Please don't make me reiterate all of the things that women have to put up with and men don't, especially in tech. Just because she got a job does not mean that we've solved patriarchy.
On what planet is this a "disadvantage"?
You are a bit too antagonistic and you sound too emotional in your responses. Please be more charitable. I am not able to respond well to such an unfriendly tone.
It doesn't, but I don't think it should. Instead we should try to correct those social disparities.
I was tempted to give a perhaps too glib response that it allows them to live in a world where they might possibly be able to benefit from the advances wrought by the more talented, but that doesn't seem to get at your underlying concern.
My personal belief is that those who lacked the opportunities to develop themselves still deserve to live with dignity and full moral consideration, but that doesn't mean we should give them awards or accept their pull requests necessarily. Furthermore, if one apportions them a scarce resource at someone else's expense, I would consider that to be unjust.
Seems strange to feign ambivalence while still responding to the post in question. If you really "didn't want to get into a shouting match", shouldn't you have just not responded at all?
Grandparent never said that at all. Why would you even think grandparent intended this?
>In my usual workplaces, nobody would be as systematically angry as you seem to be about a woman and a company asking other people to be nice.
Once again, grandparent isn't systematically angry as a woman and a company asking other people to be nice. Where did you get this from?
"An employee complained about sexual harassment at Github. The confirmation of some of her accusations by an independent investigator led the CEO to step down."
Sounds different, doesn't it?
> She accused the company of sexism and sexual harassment (independent investigator found none, and other female Github engineers said there was nothing wrong)
> JAH also complained of terrible sexual harassment - that is, men looking at women spinning hula hoops. Women did not complain, but JAH got offended on their behalf anyway.
Are these not facts? Were "men looking at women spinning hula hoops" and this other individual brought it to someone's attention as sexual harassment?
> and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didn’t have a problem with this.
> What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the
> hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I
> brought this up to male coworkers, they didn’t see a problem with it. But for me it felt
> unsafe and to be honest, really embarrassing. That was the moment I decided to finally
> leave GitHub."
From the HN discussion when this happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7408492
Article in question: http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/15/julie-ann-horvath-describes...
The reason he stepped down was not due to sexual harassment complaints, but to his wife misusing resources of the company.
Even by the narrow "power plus prejudice" definition this is false; this is pretty readily observable, in the first instance, in lots of contexts where whites are not in a position of power (even in localized contexts embedded in broader societies where whites are in a position of power.)
They may be less significant in modern American society because of the general power distribution in the overall society and therefore the most common power distribution in particular contexts embedded within that society, but that's very different than not being real things.
There's no anti-male sexist oppression going. There may be instances of anti-male sexist discrimination (eg. assuming that male kindergarten teachers are child molesters).
Two different definitions of sexism and racism.
Depending on the definition of racism and sexism, the "anti-white" and "anti-male" variants may exist or not. Please don't assume that your definition (which seems to be of the "oppression" kind) is universal.
I'm actually glad that they removed the satirical language repo and the one that used the word `retarded` and I don't believe that anybody actually endorses anti-white racism or anti-male sexism. You should feel bad for spreading that around.
We are, after all, talking about a GNU project here.
Software industry is becoming so dependant of github hosted open source project that is if github is down for a long time, it could hurt software industry seriously.